"Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock 'n' roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me. John Lennon to Maureen Cleeve (London Evening Standard) March 4th 1966.

 

Maureen Cleeve

 

 

Maureen Cleeve & The Beatles

 

Maureen Cleeve & The Beatles 1964

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Apologies :   john lennon :"If I had said television is more popular than Jesus, I might have got away with it, but I just happened to be talking to a friend and I used the words "Beatles" as a remote thing, not as what I think - as Beatles, as those other Beatles like other people see us. I just said "they" are having more influence on kids and things than anything else, including Jesus. But I said it in that way which is the wrong way."... Reporter: Some teenagers have repeated your statements - "I like the Beatles more than Jesus Christ." What do you think about that? JOHN LENNON :"Well, originally I pointed out that fact in reference to England. That we meant more to kids than Jesus did, or religion at that time. I wasn't knocking it or putting it down. I was just saying it as a fact and it's true more for England than here. I'm not saying that we're better or greater, or comparing us with Jesus Christ as a person or God as a thing or whatever it is. I just said what I said and it was wrong. Or it was taken wrong. And now it's all this."....   Reporter: But are you prepared to apologise? JOHN LENNON :"I wasn't saying whatever they're saying I was saying. I'm sorry I said it really. I never meant it to be a lousy anti-religious thing. I apologize if that will make you happy. I still don't know quite what I've done. I've tried to tell you what I did do but if you want me to apologize, if that will make you happy, then OK, I'm sorry."         Beatles Interview: Memphis, Tennessee 8/19/1966   ABOUT THIS INTERVIEW: On August 19th 1966, The Beatles flew to Memphis Tennessee for two shows at Mid-South Coliseum, the 8th stop along their 1966 North American tour. John Lennon's misquoted remarks earlier in the year about the current state of Christianity had caused tensions, especially in the southern states: Protests, record burnings organized by christian radio stations, and anonymous death threats, including a televised threat against the Beatles from a local Memphis Ku Klux Klan member. While there were no issues with the afternoon Memphis performance, hearts stopped as someone threw an exploding firecracker on-stage during the Beatles' evening concert. Reportedly, the noise sounded at first like a gun shot, shocking everyone who heard it. Beatles' Press Officer Tony Barrow would later recall: "Once we did get down to that area, the southern states... a firecracker was let off during the concert in Memphis and everybody, all of us at the side of the stage, including the three Beatles on stage, all looked immediately at John Lennon. We would not at that moment have been surprised to see that guy go down. John had half-heartedly joked about the Memphis concert in an earlier press conference, and when we got there everything seemed to be controlled and calm, but underneath somehow, there was this nasty atmosphere. It was a very tense and pressured kind of day." News of the 'Jesus statement' controversy in America had reached home, and ITV had flown from London to Memphis to interview the group backstage at Mid-South Coliseum.                                            - Jay Spangler, www.beatlesinterviews.org Q: "What difference has all this row made to this tour, do you think? Any at all?" JOHN: (opens his mouth widely to speak, and comically freezes with his mouth open) RINGO: (laughs) PAUL: "I don't think it's made much. It's made it more hectic. It's made all the press conferences mean a bit more. People said to us last time we came that our answers were a bit flippant, and they said 'Why isn't it this time?' And the thing is the questions are a bit more serious this time. It hasn't affected any of the bookings. The people coming to the concerts have been the same, except for the first show in Memphis which was a bit down, you know. But, uhh, so what." Q: "The disc jockey, Tommy Charles, who started this row off, has said that he won't play your records until you've grown up a little. How do you feel about that?" JOHN: "Well, I don't mind if he never plays them again, you know." PAUL: "See, this is the thing. Everyone seems to think that when they hear us say things like this that we're childish. You can't say things like that unless you're a silly little child." GEORGE: "And if he (Charles) was grown up, he wouldn't have done the thing 'cuz he only did it for a stunt, anyway. So I mean, who is he to say about growing up? Who is he?" PAUL: (jokingly to George) "Who is this guy?" JOHN: (smiling) "Other than that, it's great." PAUL: "Quite a swinging tour." Q: "Do you feel that Americans are out to get you... that this is all developing into something of a witch hunt?" PAUL: "No. We thought it might be that kind of thing. I think a lot of people in England did, because there's this thing about, you know, when America gets violent and gets very hung-up on a thing, it tends to have this sort of 'Ku Klux Klan' thing around it." Q: "It seems to me that you've always been successful BECAUSE you've been outspoken, direct, and forthright, and all this sort of thing. Does it seem a bit hard to you that people are now knocking you for this very thing?" JOHN & PAUL: (smiling, and exaggerated nodding) "Yes!" JOHN: "It seems VERY hard." PAUL: "It seems hard. You know, free speech." Q: "But is it possible just to say what you think all the time? What about 14-year-old teenagers who think you're absolutely marvelous?" PAUL: "See, we're not... When we say anything like that, we don't say it, as other people seem to think, to be offensive. We mean it helpfully, you know. And if it's wrong, what we say, okay it's wrong. And people can say, you know, 'You're wrong about that one.' But in many cases we believe it's right. We're quite serious about it." Q: "But do you mind being asked questions, for example in America people keep asking you questions about Vietnam. Does this seem useful?" PAUL: "I dunno, you know. If you can say that war is no good, and a few people believe you, then it may be good. I don't know. You can't say too much, though. That's the trouble." JOHN: "It seems a bit silly to be in America and for none of them to mention Vietnam as if nothing was happening." Q: "But why should they ask you about it? You're successful entertainers." JOHN: "Because Americans always ask showbiz people what they think, and so do the British. (comically) Showbiz... you know how it is!" RINGO: (laughs) JOHN: "But I mean you just gotta... You can't keep quiet about anything that's going on in the world, unless you're a monk. (jokingly, with dramatic arm gestures) Sorry, monks! I didn't mean it! I meant actually...." (laughter) JOHN: "It doesn't matter about people not liking our records, or not liking the way we look, or what we say. You know, they're entitled to not like us. And we're entitled not to have anything to do with them if we don't want to, or not to regard them. We've all got our rights, you know, Harold."

 

 

 

 

 Beatles Press Conference: Chicago 8/11/1966

ABOUT THIS PRESS CONFERENCE:

Reporter Maureen Cleave, a friend of John's, published an article about him in the March

4th 1966 edition of the London Evening Standard, entitled 'How Does A Beatle Live?'. The

article contained a small handful of quotes from a recent conversation she had with him,

including John's personal view of the current state of religion: "Christianity will go. It will

vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I am right and I will be proved right. We're

more popular than Jesus now. I don't know which will go first-- rock and roll or christianity.

Jesus was alright, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins

it for me."

The quote was taken out of context in America, and spread as a ridiculous egocentric

headline: "John says Beatles bigger than Jesus." Reaction in the southern parts of the

United States ranged from Ku Klux Klan protests and Beatle record burnings arranged

by christian radio stations, to anonymous death threats.

Chicago was the first stop of their 1966 American tour. This was the Beatles' first

opportunity to answer questions personally for the American press regarding the Jesus

Statement controversy.

Following this August 11th meeting with the Chicago press at the Astor Towers hotel,

the Beatles would hold an additional press conference in Chicago the next day,

preceding their August 12th International Amphitheatre concert. 

                                          - Jay Spangler, www.beatlesinterviews.org

---

JOHN: "If I had said television is more popular than Jesus, I might have got

away with it.

You know, but as I just happened to be talking to a friend, I used the word 'Beatles' as

a remote thing-- not as what 'I' think as Beatles-- as those other Beatles like other

people see us. I just said 'they' are having more influence on kids and things than

anything else, including Jesus. But I said it in that way which is the wrong way.

Yap yap."

Q: "Some teenagers have repeated your statements-- 'I like the Beatles more than

Jesus Christ.' What do you think about that?"

JOHN: "Well, originally I was pointing out that fact in reference to England-- that

we meant more to kids than Jesus did, or religion, at that time. I wasn't knocking

it or putting it down, I was just saying it as a fact. And it's sort of... It is true,

'specially more for England than here. I'm not saying that we're better, or greater,

or comparing us with Jesus Christ as a person or God as a thing or whatever it is,

you know. I just said what I said and it was wrong, or was taken wrong. And

now it's all this."

Q: "There have been threats against your life, there have been record burnings,

you've been banned from some radio stations-- Does this bother you?"

JOHN: "Well, it worries me."

PAUL: "You know, it's bound to bother us."

Q: "Do you think you're being crucified?"

JOHN: (clearly and seriously) "No, I wouldn't say THAT at all!"

(laughter from reporters)

Q: "What do you think about the record burnings here in the United States?"

PAUL: "Well, I think it's a bit silly. It seems a bit like a publicity stunt on their

part, you know. I think they're not going to gain anything by doing that."

JOHN: "If they just didn't buy the records, or threw them away, but burning them is..."

GEORGE: "It's the same old wrong mess. They've just taken it the wrong way, and

that's just the pity that... It's this misunderstanding which shouldn't be."

Q: "Mister Starr, you haven't said a word."

RINGO: "Well, I just hope it's all over now, you know. I hope everyone's straightened

out, and it's finished."

Q: "Is this an attempt to raise your flagging popularity?"

JOHN: "I could think of a much easier way..."

Q: "Such as?"

JOHN: "...to raise flagging popularity. I don't know, if you think of stunts. But we

don't do stunts. I think we've done one in our lives that's been completely a stunt."

PAUL: "But anyway, that's not the kind of thing that's gonna..."

Q: "Are you sorry you said it?"

JOHN: "I am. Yes, you know. Even though I never meant what people think I

meant by it. I'm still sorry I opened my mouth."

Q: "Did you mean that the Beatles are more popular than Christ?"

JOHN: (sighs) "When I was talking about it, it was very close and intimate with

this person that I know who happens to be a reporter. And I was using expressions

on things that I'd just read and derived about christianity. Only, I was saying it in

the simplest form that I know, which is the natural way I talk. But she took 'em,

and people that know me took 'em exactly as it was-- because they know that's

how I talk, you know."

Q: "It was quoted, a recent statement by you, that the Beatles were anxious for

what they called the downfall-- that is, the time when they would no longer be on top.

Are you anxious for it?"

JOHN: "Well, I don't know what that is. No."

PAUL: "I don't think that we ever said that."

GEORGE: "If we were really anxious, we'd just do something to..."

PAUL: "We'd DO it, you know."

GEORGE: "...end it."

PAUL: "That's the thing. If we really wanted to get out..."

JOHN: "People say, 'Oh, they must've done it on purpose. They must have a reason,'

you know.

But I made a mistake, and I opened me mouth, but there was no alterior motive in it,

either way."

Q: "Are you concerned that your image may be changing and diminished in the

eyes of the kids?"

GEORGE: "We change all the time, really-- our style."

RINGO: "I mean, we look different every time we come to America, if you look at

the old photographs. We never keep to a strict fashion."

JOHN: "You can see how we've changed."

Q: "Do you do that on purpose?"

PAUL: "No."

JOHN: "No. (giggling) We're just growing old."

RINGO: "No, it's just that we don't control ourselves that much. We just look the

same for twelve months."

GEORGE: "If you look at a photograph of yourself last year, you probably changed..."

Q: "It hasn't been done by any design?"

PAUL AND RINGO: "No."

Q: "Does that mean your hair is longer?"

JOHN: "Probably, yeah."

RINGO: "It could be. I don't think mine is."

Q: "Do you chaps want to go into SHORT hair?"

RINGO: "No, I don't like short hair, you know."

JOHN: "We don't follow fashion anyway."

Q: "When are you gonna make another movie?"

RINGO: "Umm, maybe January, with any luck."

Q: "Do you have any idea what it's going to be about, or..."

RINGO: "It's just a small idea. There's no script yet."

Q: "What's the most enjoyable thing for you four about this adulation-- this almost

'Godhood on earth' that you've achieved?"

JOHN: (looks away distastefully) "Don't say that."

(laughter)

PAUL: (pointing to the reporter) "It was him. He said it."

JOHN: (to the other reporters) "Now, you all SAW that."

Q: "Can we talk about your music a little bit? You've gone a long ways from 'I Want To

Hold Your Hand' to 'Eleanor Rigby' and the raga and so on. What direction are you trying

to move your music?"

PAUL: "The thing is, we're just trying to move it in a forward direction. And this is

the point-- you know, this is why we're getting in all these messes with saying

things. Because, you know, we're just trying to move forwards. And people seem

to be trying to just sort of hold us back and not want us to say anything that's

vaguely sort of, you know, inflammatory. I mean, we won't if, really-- If people

don't want that, then we won't do it-- We'll sort of just do it privately. But I think

it's better for everyone if we're just honest about the whole thing."

Q: "How are you going to respond after tonight? Are you going to try and explain

yourselves every time somebody asks, or what?"

JOHN: "Well, I'll try if they keep asking me, you know."

Q: "It's very important to you?"

JOHN: "I'll try... I'll go on and on trying until they get it straight, you know,

because I just don't like to be sort of thought of as what I'm really not, you know.

It's nothing like me-- the thing they're putting 'round is nothing to do with me as a

person, you know."

Q: (to George) "What about you? What was your reaction to what he said, and the

reaction TO what he said?"

GEORGE: "Well, in the context that it was meant-- it was the fact that christianity is

declining, and everybody knows about that, and that was the fact that was trying

to be made."

Q: (to George) "Do you agree with it?"

GEORGE: "I do agree. I agree that it's on the wane."

Q: "What do you think about that fact that you believe that it's true?

What's your reaction to that truth?"

JOHN: "Well, my reaction is that I was deploring it, you know. I was pointing

it out. I mean, if somebody like us says it, people sort of do take notice, you

know-- even church people are trying to be 'with it' with pop groups and things.

They're still doing it the wrong way, and I was just stating a fact as I saw it.

And I wasn't trying to compare me or the group with Jesus or religion at all,

but just only in that way-- the way I'm trying to tell ya."

Q: "Can I have just one more question? I'd like to ask your reaction to the

fact that at London Airport this morning, some of the girls were crying,

'John, not Jesus.'"

JOHN: "Well you know, I don't take that seriously, either."

PAUL: "They're taking it the wrong way like everyone else, you know."

Q: "Are you unhappy about that?"

JOHN: "No, you know-- It'll get straightened out, because... I mean, I could have

stopped there and said, 'Now listen, that's wrong, what you're saying,' but I couldn't

do that-- I had to come over here anyway and do all this, and try and straighten

THIS out first. So, if it does get straightened out, it'll be straightened out for THEM."

M.C: "Okay, that you very much."

BEATLES: "Thank you."

REPORTER: "Thank you, John."

Source: Transcribed by www.beatlesinterviews.org from video and audio recordings of the press conference

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1966--London's Evening Standard publishes Maureen Cleeve's interview with

John Lennon that contains his soon-to-be-distorted "Beatles more

popular than Jesus" remarks. Lennon said: "Christianity will go. It will

vanish and shrink. I needn't argue that. I'm right and will be proved right.

We're more popular than Jesus right now. I don’t know which will go first,

rock and roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right, but his disciples were

thick and ordinary. It’s them twisting it that ruins it for me." Although

Lennon was making a comment about the irrelevance of organized

religion to many contemporary young people, most conservatives

interpret his statement as an arrogant insult. No one in the UK is

particularly shocked or offended, but when the remarks (quoted

out of context) reach the US, American conservatives (particularly those

in southern states) go off the deep end and start Beatles bonfires for the

burning of Beatles records, magazines, cards, books, posters, and other

paraphernalia. The hostile atmosphere surrounding The Beatles' final

concert tour of the US has much to do with their decision to quit touring

altogether. Although the most controversial part of the Lennon interview

was the “Jesus” remarks, he also made some rather prophetic statements

about his personal life: “Weybridge won’t do at all. I’m just stopping at it,

like a bus stop. I’ll take my time. I’ll get my real house when I know what

I want. You see, there’s something else I’m going to do, something I

must do...only I don’t know what it is. That’s why I go around painting

and taping and drawing and writing and that, because it may be one

of them. All I know is, this isn’t ‘it’ for me.”